I am a newbie so please forgive me if this fails to meet your evidence criteria just yet. I worked for BT all my life, and well remember my senior manager coming in to a meeting in about 1988/89 with a huge 'portable' mobile telephone. I inherited that about 6 months later when a newer lighter model arrived for him. Range was limited, battery life from the massive powerpack was short, hernias could be induced by lengthy posing in town centres! . But by 2001 we had mobiles that were incredibly small, lasted a longer time in terms of periods between battery charges, but still cut out with annoying regularity when on the fringes of a 'cell' antenna - trans/recvr.

I have long been surprised at the number of cellphone calls made by the 'hijacked passengers' on 911, starting at the impossible transmitting altitudes of 25-30,000'.
Of course, this is possible, sometimes anyway, in 2007 - the technology has moved on, but that was definitely not the case in 2001 - for it to work, the passenger aircraft has to act as a mobile 'cell' in it's own right I believe. The development of such equipment for installation in some modern airliners is still ongoing - older models may still not have the facility yet.

Please visit the Physics911.ca site - look for 'Project Achilles Report' parts 1,,II & 3.

There are a couple of interesting comments at the end of part III :-
Dear Dr Dewdney

I too can verify that on a private charter airline, Champion Air, which was a 737-300, I believe that is correct or it might have been a 727-300. But regardless of that, we took off from Dallas/Ft. Worth International Airport at 0735 in July of 2003. As we were taxiing to the run way the pilot told us to please turn off all electronic equipment, i.e. Cell Phones, Laptops, etc. I did so, but shortly after take off and before the pilot said we could use our "electronic equipment" I thought I would call my mom and let her know we were in the air. We had not been off the ground for more than 2 minutes. I would guess between 2000 and 5000 ft. I was using at the time one of Motorola's top of the line phones, a V60t. My cell phone carrier is Cingular which is quite a widespread carrier as you probably know, I had absolutely no signal at all. Since we were flying to Cozumel, Mexico I kept trying and watching for a signal until we got out past the coast line of Texas, when then I knew for sure I wouldn't get a signal again until we landed in Cozumel. Again in June 2004 we flew out of DFW, same airline, same type of plane, and the same thing occurred. This time I left my phone on from take off and up until it lost the signal. Again we couldn't have been more than 2000 to 3000 ft. off the ground. I lost the signal and never again got a signal until the plane landed in Cozumel. I find it highly unlikely that anyone could have used a cell phone on 9/11/01 at above 2000 feet.

This is an interesting 'can of worms' there are so many of course, so many avenues being hotly contested. I just feel comfortable that this may be just the forum to get this topic discussed sensibly.

Warmest regards for 2007 - let's all hope we make some progress.

I was going to post something regarding this issue as potential evidence for the site but you beat me to it Westgate. Good for you. I offer only some links that potentially back up assertions that Cell Phone calls are highly improbable that day. Where that leads I dont know. If any of this is useable within the evidence base please place it there as further back up to this theory, if not discard. Absorb what is useful afterall.

Dewdneys research is flawed only in that it is impossible for any researcher to replicate the conditions of that day. His experiment is carried out in a different aircraft type, with more modern cell phones, over a different flight path with a different layout or coverage of towers. No one can ever offer the same conditions as times have changed, so I hold his experiment as pretty valid given the chances of recreating similar conditions. Most news points to cell phones being unlikely to have worked so well that day.

The first link is pretty damning and i believe Rowland Morgan's Flight 93 book details a baffled CEO of a telecommunications company that was pretty suprised the calls got through that day.

http://money.cnn.com/2004/12/09/technology/personaltech/cellphones_inflight/index.htm
DECEMBER 2004

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6127052.stm BBC NOV 8th 2006

http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/12/21/wired.airlines/index.html DEC 2006 21st CNN MONEY

http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/8266/53/ DEC 2006 22nd

http://webworkerdaily.com/2006/12/21/are-we-ready-for-cell-phone-calls-from-30000-feet/
WEB WORKER DAILY discusses the above ideas.

http://pcworld.about.com/news/Jul152005id121842.htm

(Paranoid piece about Terrorists using picocells if installed to detonate bombs. Laura Parsky Dept Attorney general of the DOJ slips up stating "Today, you might not be able to get into a lavatory and get a reliable connection," she said. "If some of these new technologies are put in place, that could be done more reliably." So cellphones are at best unreliable to a layman like herself.

This one is interesting
http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/mar06/3069
A pretty detailed 5 page report on emissions and interference from various in flight devices. Involved with the FCC tests in 2003 to 2006. It references the findings of the FCC tests in 2006 that CNN also ran a story on I cant locate.

http://www.tv.com/mythbusters/cell-phones-on-planes/episode/661128/summary.html MYTHBUSTERS apparently ran an episode proving in flight cell phone use would cause interefence and possible crashes. (Cell Phones on Planes
Episode Number: 60 Season Num: 4 First Aired: Wednesday March 15, 2006 Prod Code: n/a) (RESULT: BUSTED

Cell Phone Plane Interference:

at 800 + mhz, the interference occurs in lab conditions.

in a real plane on the ground: phones have no effect

RESULT: BUSTED)

http://www.bootsnall.com/guides/05-06/cell-phone-calls-inflight.html JUNE 21st 2005

http://news.com.com/Cell+phones+to+take+flight/2100-1039_3-5727009.html JUNE 1st 2005 (references 9/11 in the light that calls were possible and explains why)

It would be great to nail this issue down one way or the other. Hell even a xbox can voice morph in real time.

Happy New Year to all
(A fantastic idea for a site BTW & much needed, may it prosper

Here is an old, but most interesting thread.:- http://physics911.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2

Firstly, congratulations to Patrick Brown for putting an excellent and much needed idea into practice!

I regret that I do not think this one is a runner, for a number of reasons:

1. The aircraft were all fitted with the Verizon AirFone system on the seat backs, so calls could have been made from those, and some were actually said to have been. We would need to establish which calls were definitely on cell phones, like the stewardess in the lavatory, and see what height the aircraft would have been, according to the official story at that time.

2. It is very difficult to prove a negative, however many cases there are where cell phones do not work, that does not prove that no phone worked on the day.

3. Reflector's first link shows that connections are possible sometimes, quote: "cell phones sometimes have trouble working when the plane is at cruising altitude because phone towers aren't built to project their signals that high." so that means sometimes cell phones do work at cruising altitude.

4. Besides anecdotal evidence that cell phones have not worked, there is also evidence that they have on occasions, the subject was discussed on the pprune pilots network, and there were a number who had accidentally left their phones on, and received calls, to their embarassment!

Hi Nicky and welcome to the forum,
Yes this one needs to be clarified as I'm still unsure if any calls were made from the planes that hit the towers. I've also heard that the Verizon headquarters, which contained all the call records, were in building 7 although this needs to be confirmed. We also have the call from the guy talking to his mum which I haven't got the details of but was a rather strange call (I'll try and post a transcript of the call at some point).


_________________
I personally see the NPT as a circular specious device to confuse readers and pull them into a mire of self-doubt and chaos which in turn will then cause them to stop investigating the events of 911!

Hello Nicky - thanks for your measured response to the postings so far.

In proposing this aspect as a subject for further discussion and evidence submission, I first gave the link to the site where the results of a most interesting experiment had been posted. This was good evidence to suggest that using mobile telephones in a light aircraft were somewhat problematical with an increase in altitude. I related this experiment to the question:- Was it therefore technically possible for passengers in four hijacked aircraft on 911 to make any form of telephone calls using their mobile telephones. Remember we are talking 2001 technology here. Thus note that 'Reflector's' first article link leads to a 2004 report where it states that indeed some mobile calls may have been possible, by accident rather than design of course. That was the point I think 'Reflector' was trying to make. 3 years in todays technological advances is a long time.

Please also read again, the guys report towards the end of my first posting, where he relates the problems trying to use a mobile, note also this was in 2003.

I am only too aware that many calls were reported to have indeed been made from Verizon seat back telephones - at this stage of evidence gathering we are not yet focusing on actual calls made, simply trying to ascertain if the use of personal mobiles may have been technically possible in September 2001?

Now, we know the types of aircraft hijacked on 911, their alleged routes flown, their approximate height and speeds. You mention the PPrune site and the postings of pilots inadvertently receiving mobile calls - that's really good evidence, but to consider it we need to know:- What year, actual dates perhaps, what type of aircraft, what altitude and speeds were they travelling at. Then we could indeed compare it to what we think we know circa 2001.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to gather that evidence for me, or provide a few links perhaps?

Nicky - this subject, like all the 911 mysteries, is not one to drop because you see negatives. Rather, let's patiently gather the evidence, let's look at all we can, then if we are satisfied that on 911 it was indeed possible to make mobile calls from 8-30,000' of a call length as has been previously reported, without drop-outs etc. then indeed our 'moderator' may well decide it should be disregarded.

When I have a little more time I will also post a couple of thoughts on the 'chit-chat' forum - perhaps you would be kind enough to join me there for a natter later on?

So, it is now confirmed, ('Revealed - Challenging the facts behind the War on Terror - Henshall/Morgan) that mobile calls just could not work at this time 2001. Certainly not at 500 mph at anything above 2000 feet.
But, flight 77 - it is also confirmed, did not have seat-back telephones installed - they (the authors) have received E-mails confirming this from AA.

So now we must ask, how on earth did Barbara Olson call her husband? My original copy of the Independent from 12-09-01 reports that she was in the toilet when she made her calls - clever stuff huh??

Fictitious scene in Westgate film:_It's a courtroom scene - the camera slowly zooms in to the prosecution attorney

"Mr Olson you have read the oath - you have sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth etc etc.......... "

Olson - "I have"

Attorney - "You say you received two calls from your Wife Barbara on 911"

Olson - "I did"

Attorney - "We know that cell-phones could not work - and American Airlines have confirmed that their aircraft was not fitted with the Verizon Seat-back telephones that day - so how do you think you Wife actually managed to call you?"

Olson - it must have been via the staff airphone

Attorney - "really ??"

Camera moves to 'Chalky White' senior correspondent for a major broadsheet newspaper - Chalky is writing in his notebook:-

Scenario 1 - 'So just where did the calls really come from?'

Scenario 2 - 'It's cheaper than a divorce for Ted Olson.'

Gosh!!


_________________
Confidence is the feeling you get before you understand the problem.

One of the strange phone calls made was by Mark Bingham. Speaking to his mother, he said" Hi Mom it's Mark, Mark Bingham."

I have never heard of any son phoning his mom and giving his surname. Anybody else think this is suspicious?

It seems to me that the issue of cell-phone calls is unprovable and cannot be evidence. I can think of many reasons why cell-phone calls could not have been possible that day, but I can't prove any of them (e.g. Farraday cages, system overload - that was a very special day and everyone on the continent was making phone calls and jamming the cell networks).

If you want EVIDENCE in this regard, I suggest that someone map out the sea-change in the media.

When did the story of 'cell-phone calls' morph into a story of 'airfone calls'?

I believe (but have not done the requisite research), that the American media flogged the story of cell phone calls for years.

The first time I heard airfones mentioned was in the 911 Commission hearings broadcast on C-SPAN. I remember thinking "you peckers, you've had a year or two to do polls and survey the resistance, and now you've changed the story to be less unbelievable".

I believe that the cell-phone story and its morphing into an airfone story can be evidence (or counter-evidence) to show media complicity and foreknowledge of the event.

The task: find the earliest main-stream media reference to airfones.

Yes Carcdr I agree that focusing on changes in press reporting can be somewhat illuminating. Victrionix mentions actual evidence - well I am afraid that will never actually come to fruition, because it's all been long destroyed or made unavailable. Nobody in the British Truth Movement will ever find actual hard evidence, at least not from UK sources anyway. It's all supposition, guesswork, it can never be anything else - can it? I am afraid I cannot/will not comment on any individual person. You see, I have been researching 911 ever since 912, I am retired and have some spare time, I have thus visited many web-sites over the years. Over the last 5 years, I have watched many 'experts' arrive on the scene and have admired quite a few for their diligent approaches. Sadly, I have also observed so many 'forum-battles' take place, for achieving whatever agendas only the participants actually know (perhaps).

We need cell phone invoices - Verizon invoices - call centre records - all quite easily available to the authorised enquirer. Call centre records would show time of connection, length of valid connection, time of disconnection. Of course these will never become available to the likes of us - indeed why should they? - we are not authorised investigators are we.

So we wait, somewhat like Sun Tsu (spelling?) says, patiently observing from the foothills, whilst those hard working researchers in the USA apply for FOIA releases.

Frustrating but so very true, you can be as offensive as you like in forums, but if it simply does not 'add value' to the complexities of ascertaining answers to all the questions surrounding 911, then why bother?

I have found, with my admitted limited knowledge and experience, Team8+ to have carried out stirling work on tracking the actual aircraft movements.
Dewdney has carried out experimental work which seems to satisfy my criteria for determining the feasibility of making cellphone calls above, say, 5-8,000'.
The link to an earlier forum thread contains an excellent piece by a telecomms technician explaining why he feels that cellphone calls on 911, whilst not theoretically impossible, were highly improbable, so I am happy to accept his knowledgeable responses.

The reporting of alleged cellphone calls from the aircraft on 911 is one of so many 'key' areas, that if successfully challenged, could lead to unravellings of the official lies. The 911 Commission 'went with the official flow' throughout their whole apology for an investigation, we all know that. But they were well able to adopt subtle changes - such as Carcdr mentions - as time revealed the obvious flaws in the use of cellphones for calls from the aircraft.

The evidence presented so far, would seem to preclude the use of cellphones, but it's not by any mean conclusive. Remember we are talking 2001, not any subsequent years when technology may have moved on somewhat. But the latest developments in usage of cellphones in modern airliners would seem to suggest that in 2001 it was almost impossible. I remain to be convinced otherwise.


_________________
Confidence is the feeling you get before you understand the problem.

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